May 31, 2023
Today’s guest is Jamison Manwaring.
Jamison is the co-founder and CEO of Neighborhood Ventures, a crowdfunding platform for real estate investments. He shares his background in real estate investing and the challenges of crowdfunding, including the minimum investment required and managing a large number of investors. Join Sam and Jamison in today’s show.
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Starting Neighborhood Ventures [00:04:31]
Challenges of Crowdfunding [00:05:36]
Restructuring the Offering [00:07:52]
Challenges of Crowdfunding [00:08:43]
The Importance of a Simple Model [00:13:05]
Investor Management Software [00:15:16]
Challenges of Crowdfunding [00:18:18]
Marketing in Real Estate [00:20:54]
Launch of a REIT [00:22:44]
Challenges of Crowdfunding [00:00:00]
Minimum Investment Required [00:00:00]
Neighborhood Ventures' Online Presence [00:26:13]
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Connect with Jamison:
Website: www.neighborhood.ventures
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/neighborhoodventures
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/neighborhoodventures
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/neighborhoodventures
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbglON5k8i-bRS6fSsSno_A
Connect with Sam:
I love helping others place money outside of traditional investments that both diversify a strategy and provide solid predictable returns.
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HowtoscaleCRE/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samwilsonhowtoscalecre/
Email me → sam@brickeninvestmentgroup.com
SUBSCRIBE and LEAVE A RATING. Listen to How To Scale Commercial Real Estate Investing with Sam Wilson
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-scale-commercial-real-estate/id1539979234
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4m0NWYzSvznEIjRBFtCgEL?si=e10d8e039b99475f
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Want to read the full show notes of the episode? Check
it out below:
Jamison Manwaring (00:00:00) - And someone in the front raised their hand and said, well, I got about $5,000 I'd like to invest. Could I do that in the preferred equity? And me and my partner, John, we looked at each other and we're like, well, that's not really how we're structuring this. We're you, you know, if it does, well, maybe you'd get 15%. If it doesn't do so, well, maybe you'd get three or 4% , right? And then somebody in the back of the room raised their hand and they said, well, actually, I would like to just do the preferred equity too. Can I do that? And it was kind of a light bulb moment.
Intro (00:00:29) - Welcome to the How to Scale commercial real Estate show. Whether you are an active or passive investor, we'll teach you how to scale your real estate investing business into something big.
Sam Wilson (00:00:42) - Jamon Man Wearing is the co-founder, managing partner and c e o of Neighborhood Ventures. Jameson, welcome to the show.
Jamison Manwaring (00:00:48) - Hey, thanks for having me. Good to be here.
Sam Wilson (00:00:50) - Absolutely. Jamon. The pleasure is mine. There are three questions I ask every guest who comes to the show, and 90 seconds are last. Can you tell me where did you start? Where are you now, and how did you get there?
Jamison Manwaring (00:01:01) - Started at Goldman Sachs Equity Analyst. So I covered software and that's when I started investing, uh, in, in real estate. Um, I, I bought a building on the side that my dad's a real estate broker. He found a good, a good first deal for me, 10 unit building, multi-family building. Needed a lot of work. But I, uh, I wanted the experiment and I wanted the, wanted to see if I liked it. So, so did that for my first project. And where we're at now is now we, we've launched a company about five years ago, a a real estate developer, uh, is my, my partner. He's the real real estate guy. I'm the finance guy. We've done 15 projects so far. And then we also launched our fund, our reit, uh, earlier this year.
Sam Wilson (00:01:48) - That is a lot of moving pieces. I want to get into the history of some of that. At what point in time did you decide to go out on your own and do your own thing?
Jamison Manwaring (00:01:58) - Yeah, so I worked at Wall Street, uh, outta college. I wanted to be a, a trader on, uh, on the, the trading floor at a big investment bank. I did that, didn't like it. Uh, I did it for quite a while, ended up transitioning within the bank to a little bit of a different role that was more, uh, uh, research and, and valuation and really looking at, uh, companies and seeing what they were worth. But I don't like the roller coaster of equities. And I covered stocks that one day they would report earnings and they were up 30%. Next quarter, they're down 40% when they report earnings. And it was just up and down. So our, our clients in those, in, at, at that bank were large institutions, pension funds, mutual funds. They're more used to that volatility. But for me personally, it, it did not match my, my temperament.
Jamison Manwaring (00:02:49) - And I started saving some money and, uh, was looking for a piece of real estate. I knew I wanted to, to own something I could see and touch. So, uh, when I'm working at, uh, Goldman Sachs, I ended up, my dad found me this, uh, building near my hometown that was 2000 miles away from New York where I was working. But I ended up buying it. And, um, and that's really what gave me the, the first start. I mean, it took six months to get it up and running, so it made no money for a while. But I, I viewed it as more of a learning experience. And then, you know, the money started coming in, the checks started coming in and paying all the expenses. That was the first thing paying the mortgage. And then beyond that, started generating some, some cash flow for myself.
Sam Wilson (00:03:33) - That's really cool. I love, I love that. And then when did you, when did you launch neighborhood Ventures? Cause it sounds like you guys, you've been pretty busy here in the last
Jamison Manwaring (00:03:42) - Few years. Yeah, so that was what got my feet wet. And I knew I liked it, but I stayed in the, uh, investment side, uh, corporate investment side for about another three years. I, I moved to a company in, in Arizona, LifeLock and I, I had worked on their I P O when I was in New York. Uh, and I ran their investor relations. I had got to know the, the founder there and, and, uh, I was ready to get outta New York. So he, they offered me a job to run their investor relations. And, um, and then about 18 months later, we got bought out and I, I had the opportunity to kind of decide what would be next. And, uh, having that first experience that I really enjoyed, I, I like seeing kind of the transformation about a building that needed, needed work, but I could see the potential.
Jamison Manwaring (00:04:31) - And I guess I'm just one of those people that I enjoy seeing something come to life that, uh, that you, you, you see it, you see the potential, you make it happen. After I had done that, and then my company got bought out, I really wanted to do something in, I wanted to do more of those projects, and I knew I would need to start raising capital. And, uh, I met a guy who's now my, my business partner, and both of us were really intrigued around crowdfunding. We thought it could be a great way to bring in more people who have never been able to invest in apartments before that, that, you know, aren't wealthy. Um, people, people who were like ourselves and, and the families we grew up in where we didn't have a lot, but we worked hard and, and tried to save some. And with, with crowdfunding, it really opens it up to everybody. You could start with a few thousand dollars and invested in projects and follow those projects all the way through. So, um, we launched the company in 2017, and, uh, we've done 15, uh, crowdfunding projects so far
Sam Wilson (00:05:36) - That crowdfunding is, uh, I mean, not many people, I think in the larger, larger transaction, commercial real estate space, they're not willing to go there. Not willing to go there, both from just, I think the, the, the lack of understanding of completely how it works, and then also from a complexity standpoint. And also, I mean, uh, what's, what's your guys' minimum? What's your minimum investment?
Jamison Manwaring (00:06:03) - You know, we were thinking about maybe we do 10,000, maybe 5,000. We end up settling at a thousand. So we have a lot of people who just met, invested at the minimum, uh, on one of our projects, we have like 400 investors. So I can totally understand why someone would shy away from that, because that's, it's, it's kind of a whole different business when you have that many investors, right? That you have to really take care of them. We've, we've, we've made a big investment in our own software platform to manage all of that, right? And, um, you know, it, it, after we did our first project, I thought, this is not gonna work. Why, why, why, uh, why would we do this? It took us six months to raise a half a million. Um, and, and we identified our first project and we thought, okay, let's use this as kind of our beta test and let's see, see if there's a market here for, uh, smaller investors to, to raise, uh, you know, half a million dollars.
Jamison Manwaring (00:07:05) - So we thought maybe that would be, you know, 50 people or a a hundred people. And it took us, um, at three months in, we had raised 200,000. And we thought, okay, this is, this is gonna be really difficult because the seller was getting antsy. They wanted us to close. We, we were friends with the seller. So he said he'd give us a few months, but at that point, he said, you know this, you can raise this money a lot easier. Why, why are you doing it this way? Right. Um, and my, my co-founder and I, we, we set a, a rule. We said, we're not gonna call our our friends and fund this. We wanted to really see if we could do it with new, smaller investors. And so we wanted to see if there was a market here. And we ended up having to restructure our, our, our, uh, offering.
Jamison Manwaring (00:07:52) - You know, initially we were gonna do a waterfall. I don't know if some of the, the listeners and your yourself, I'm sure you're familiar with waterfalls, how they work with preferred equity, and then you get upside and, and they're very confusing to the average person. Mm-hmm. And that's what we found. Sure. And after we tried to, to do that for three months and couldn't get any traction, we ended up, we were actually sitting in a meeting with, um, a bunch of potential investors. And we had one larger investor who had said that they, they would fund, you know, a couple hundred thousand with a 10% preferred equity, and they would get preferred equity. And what preferred equity means is you get paid first. So it's a lower risk because the preferred equity holder gets that money, uh, before everyone else. Before, after that it, it's the next thing that gets paid.
Jamison Manwaring (00:08:43) - And we said, we had a big investor who was going to do that, and then we're trying to explain to this group of it was about a hundred people that after that person got paid, now then if the project did this, they might get this return. If it did this, get this return all in waterfall. And we're looking out, and someone in the front raised their hand and said, well, I got about $5,000 I'd like to invest. Could I do that in the preferred equity? And me and my partner, John, we looked at each other and we're like, well, that's not really how we're structuring this. We're you, you know, if it does, well, maybe you'd get 15%. If it doesn't do so, well, maybe you'd get three or 4% . Right?
Jamison Manwaring (00:09:18) - And then somebody in the back of the room raised their hand and they said, well, actually, I would like to just do the preferred equity too. Can I do that? And it was kind of a light bulb moment where we looked at each other, said, well, let, let's let us get back to you. Because we had been, we'd had a hard time raising our capital at that point. Yeah. So we ended up going and restructuring it and paying a 12% preferred return to our investors. Once we restructured it, we ended up selling it out in about a month. We raised half a million. And now the, the 14 projects we've done since then, all of our investors receive a 12% preferred return. And then if we can achieve more than that, then that's where our profit comes in. Uh, they're capped at 12%, but they're very comfortable with that. They're happy to get their 12% return.
Sam Wilson (00:10:07) - That's it. It's, there's 12%, you get 12%. Now it's, it's, it's preferred. Not guaranteed, but, so it's a 12% preferred return. And after that, they're done.
Jamison Manwaring (00:10:20) - And it's, it's, um, simple. Yeah. Because our investors don't do this. They, they're working their day job. They're, we have firemen, we have doctors, we have, uh, school teachers, and they, they wanna start, puts money away so they can just know 12% makes more sense, and it's a good return. And they get a lot of it along the way. As we start generating cash flow, they, they start getting that, you know, five, 6% a year, and then the other portion of the other 6% that they aren't getting, they get paid at the end when we sell. So they accrue that. And our projects are two or three years each, and then they get a big payout at the end. Um, we've had six of 'em go full cycle, and then the investors come back and reinvest. But yeah, that, that preferred really changed the game for us.
Jamison Manwaring (00:11:05) - But it was, it was a slog. You know, anytime you're trying to have somebody write a check, whether it's a thousand dollars or a hundred thousand dollars or a million, it's a process. You, it's a, you know, you're not, and and for us, we have to do that with two or 300 times with each investment, but it's gotten a lot easier. Now we're starting to get some momentum behind it because we have a track record. But, uh, there was a lot of times where I said, yeah, we need to, there's a lot of easier ways to do this.
Sam Wilson (00:11:33) - There are, man, there are, and hearing, hearing your story of a six month slog to a half a million dollar raise, uh, boy, that, that's, that's painful. Um, but I, I think obviously you knew this, you're onto something. You just, you just had to figure out how to make it work. I I, I didn't ever hear any like, all right, we're gonna throw in the towel and just, just quit.
Jamison Manwaring (00:11:53) - We, we knew going in that we were, we were really doing the first one to learn. Yeah. And, uh, and we had a long-term view, you know, if, if you're hustling and you gotta make a lot of money on this first deal, it, it makes it tough. It adds a lot of stress. So we just had a long-term view. We said, we wanna, we wanna see if there's a market here. The second deal we did two or three months later, it took us two months to raise 600,000. Cuz a lot of those investors had gone through the educational process and now they invested. Right. Our last deal, we just launched, uh, what, three weeks ago we hit our target raise in 10 hours. Right. . Um, and, and now we have a base of investors that we're growing, um, who, who continue to come back and invest with us. And now, now we, we can kind of see the, the beauty of the, of the business model.
Sam Wilson (00:12:41) - Right. And that, I mean, that's, that's a, uh, just a encouragement I think to anybody that's out there raising capital, especially newer, um, newer sponsors raising capital and just how difficult it can be in the beginning, like getting that momentum. It is, like you said, you know, you sold out in 10 hours. Like that's a very different experience than let's raise a half a million dollars in six months.
Jamison Manwaring (00:13:05) - Yeah. And, and uh, you know, it takes seeing a few deals go full cycle. Yeah. You, it, it is a, a, uh, you gotta have a long term view. You have have to have some patience, some delayed gratification. Mm-hmm. , but, you know, doing what you say, uh, and investors have a great experience with it, and they get to know you. They, they wanna keep doing it and, and, and coming back. So it is a, uh, that's the barrier to entry in the business is that first, you know, five deal, five, four or five deals in for several years to, to get it going. But there is light at the, at the tunnel, uh, as you get through it. Right.
Sam Wilson (00:13:44) - I like also the way you've simplified things that you said. It's very confusing for the average investor, the waterfall, uh, I get it at this point cause I've seen enough of the deals, but, but we've moved even to a model like that in our syndications where it's a preferred and we're, we're still not given just a straight, you know, 12% or whatever it is. We're still doing a split, but it's, it is a base split. It's like, here's the number and we're splitting this and we're done. And there's just no more like, okay, if then that statements that we're working through on a series of, you know, five pages long. I mean, I, I literally saw a deal deck came to me. The split profiles were like three pages of if we hit 18, then by that and with the X happens, then I was just like, this is
Jamison Manwaring (00:14:28) - Like, and, and, and you know, as an investor, because I was a, uh, an investor before I started doing it on the site, I was starting to look at deals and I couldn't even calculate it. And I'm a, I'm a Goldman Sachs equity analyst calculating all kinds of crazy stuff. And I, I was like, boy, how can I really get confidence around what my return's gonna be? Yeah. Cause it was so complicated. , right?
Sam Wilson (00:14:53) - Oh man. And the confused mind says no. Right,
Jamison Manwaring (00:14:56) - Right. That's the, that's the default. If I can't understand this, then it's a no,
Sam Wilson (00:15:00) - Then it's a no, then it's a no. Tell me this, you, you mentioned, uh, software managing this many, this many investors for a smaller sum of money. How does that become cost effective?
Jamison Manwaring (00:15:16) - Yeah, it's a, you, you'll find out quick if you get over, I don't know, 20 investors that you, you have to get off of Excel and, uh, you know, and, and, uh, whatever you're doing at your desktop, uh, software to manage that. And you have to figure out a better way to, to uh, uh, work with them. And, and most investors, you know, it adds some credibility to, if they can log into something and see what it all looks like. Yep. So we initially used a, uh, a software as a service, uh, a kind of out of the box software, the white label. Yep. And then we were able to put our name on it and, and that cost us a couple grand a month. And, uh, and then we realized, uh, that that got us off the ground. And that's great because it wasn't a big investment for us.
Jamison Manwaring (00:16:06) - Right. And there's those platforms out there. This one was called Crowd Engine cuz we were doing crowdfunding. But there's others for, uh, sponsors that might have more like 30 or 30 to a hundred investors or, or that that can work real well. Um, uh, Juniper Square, I think is another one. Mm-hmm. . Um, uh, but I, I think that's an important thing today is, is allowing people to log in to see, see what they do. And then we, last year we ended up building out our own platform, which was a significant investment. And now we have a full-time programmer on our staff that, to manage it, to keep pushing it. But that, that's our business model. We're a, we're a part tech company because we're crowdfunding. We do a ton of marketing, we do a ton of content because we gotta talk to a lot of people. We gotta keep broadening our audience. We want, we wanna hit, you know, um, a hundred thousand investors in five years mm-hmm. . So we're, we're growing that way. Um, uh, and, and so we've put a lot of resources behind it. So it's a little different, uh, for, than, than the traditional syndicator. But I do think that software is important.
Sam Wilson (00:17:13) - Yeah. No, absolutely. Absolutely. It sounds like you have a pension for not, I'm not gonna say difficult things, but, but figuring out going places that most people probably just don't want to go. I mean, does that kind of get you going where it's like, okay, this is really complicated. I gotta figure out how to do it.
Jamison Manwaring (00:17:31) - I, you, you're reading, you know, me too well and my business partner, it's the same way. Sometimes it gets us in trouble. It's like, we should have just done the easy way . Uh, but, um, you do learn a lot through the hard way. Right. And then you can default, you can say, okay, that wasn't worth it. Right. But, you know, it does make it kind of fun. And, and we actually, when we started the business, both he and I, we didn't, we didn't need to start the business. We, we could have done other things, but we wanted to go try something new. We wanted do something novel, um, unique. And that's kind of driven everything else we've done because we're not afraid to shy or sh we're not sh shy at jumping into something that seems difficult. Um, if if no one else is doing it, it might be an opportunity. And that's, that's kind of how we've approached it.
Sam Wilson (00:18:18) - I would imagine you mentioned the, um, marketing side of crowdfunding. I mean, there's got to be, there's got to be, uh, a robust, uh, plan and budget probably in place if you're thinking about crowdfunding, which I am not. But if any, any listeners are thinking about this, I'm just guessing here, maybe you can fill in the blanks cause I've never done it, but a robust, uh, marketing plan and then marketing budget in order to launch a crowdfunding investment. Yeah.
Jamison Manwaring (00:18:49) - If, um, you, you, I don't know if anyone's heard or or you've heard about stories on Kickstarter where, you know, they, they have a, a new invention they're gonna, they're gonna put on Kickstarter and that, that was really what crowdfunding came from. And you think, you know, the old adage, if you build it, they will come, um, if I put my, this new widget on Kickstarter, all of a sudden everyone's gonna flood the gates and invest. And the reality is that, um, you have to do a ton of marketing behind, behind that. Uh, and you know, if you're gonna get, uh, if you need to get a hundred investors at 5,000 each, you, you have to talk to, uh, several thousand people that actually listen to you and go through the whole thing. You, you can't, you know, not just, I'm not just saying put a, an ad out on Facebook or Instagram or something, but it, you really have to engage several thousand people Wow.
Jamison Manwaring (00:19:45) - To get that many investors, uh, whether that's Kickstarter and a widget, or whether it's a real estate project. And one platform I would recommend is small change. Uh, it's a company out of, uh, Pittsburgh, but they're basically Kickstarter for real estate projects. So you could put a project on there. You don't have to have the software. They have all of it, right. Uh, they, they charge a, a, you know, a fee, 6%, something like that, of, of what you raise. But they, but you could put it on there. And they work with the s e c, they're rig CF platform. And, uh, and it's, and you can put your offering there, there, but the problem is once it's there, they do have an audience, you know, several thousand people who follow them. But you basically have to do a lot of the heavy lifting to get people there and invest. But I think it's a great place to start. Um, and, and, uh, small change.dot, uh, co is their, their website. Um, and, uh, and then you have to decide, okay, how are we gonna market this? How are we going to find people to invest in it and get creative about how to do that? And you have to be a marketer on that side of it,
Sam Wilson (00:20:54) - Right? Yeah. And that's, uh, that's the other half of this business. And I love the way you've partnered up there with your apartment developer side of the business that handles that. And I think that's, that's an often overlooked aspect is that Yeah, this is a lot of what we do is marketing. I mean, this podcast is marketing. It really is. And it's, it's just, it's just the, the part of it that's oftentimes overlooked as we in real estate want to be real estate people doing a b buying apartment complex as well. Half of the business is marketing. So
Jamison Manwaring (00:21:26) - Yeah. And because there's a lot to that business in and of itself. Yeah. I mean, you gotta, you gotta be good at a lot of things here for me, I know I'm not that good at multiple things. Right. Um, so I have a business partner who's really the construction guy, the real estate guy. Our property managers report to him, our construction crew reports to him, he finds our deals. Um, and then he says, I don't really wanna talk to investors. You got that right. And, you know, I, and I, he, he, he's not looking at the month in books, uh, to send out to investor. I'm doing all of that. So we've, we've split that up because there's a, there's a lot to it. There really is.
Sam Wilson (00:22:04) - There sure is. And we are almost out of time here. I want to, I do want to get one Since, since, since you love complicated things. You've done crowdfunding, you've built your owned, uh, backend portal for all of your, your now thousands of probably investors on a crowdfunding side of things. You just launched a reit. Tell me the kind of in maybe 60 seconds, if you can, uh, the thought process behind it, and much like you found with the 12% preferred return to your investors, what, what was it that was in the market that people were saying, Hey, we want a REIT that does X So you decide to create that. What was that kind of, uh, inspiration for that?
Jamison Manwaring (00:22:44) - As our projects went full cycle and we sold them, we had a lot of investors that said, whoa, whoa, why are you selling that building? We really like that location. We would've loved to stayed in it, but we structured it to be a two or three year hold period so everyone would get liquidity, including us. So we had to do that for a while. But we realized that we had built up an, a base of investors that would love to be invested with us more long term. And so now, uh, with, with the launch of the re part of the reason was that we can take some of these projects that we renovate and we reposition and instead of sell them to a a third party, we, the REIT buys out the equity almost like, uh, it's called a, like an upreit. So folks that are in the project can convert and roll their, their proceeds over to the reit.
Jamison Manwaring (00:23:36) - And now the REIT holds that project. And we knew that we had a lot of investors who would be interested in doing that cuz they like our project, they like the returns. Um, and then, uh, the, the second thing for us is it provides a bit more stable business longer term because now, you know, we're not just doing deals, but we're, we're building a fund. The REIT doesn't have a an end date. It's gonna work in perpetuity. And so, you know, we collect a management fee on that and then we, we, we get 80% of our upside to the investors as those assets held in the re go up in value. Investors get 80% of that and we're only gonna take 20%. So for an investor that's actually really attractive that they can invest in stabilize cash, money, assets, and as those things go up in value, they're gonna get a a, a good p piece of that.
Jamison Manwaring (00:24:29) - Um, so there was, it was kind of the maturation of our business. It just kind of took us to that place where that was the next right thing and it's, you know, it's, we're doing it as crowdfunding as well. So we we're gonna need about 10,000 investors in our reit. Wow. Um, and we have, uh, three, four years to do that. So the REIT will be open fundraise for that period of time. And uh, and it took us about nine months to, to create the reit. We had to work with our legal team and the s e C had to qualify it before we could launch it. So it was kind of its own own thing. When you work with non-accredited investors like we do through crowdfunding, it is much more compliant, uh, compliance route, uh, is involved because the, there's all these protections for those folks so they don't lose their money. If you're working with accredited investors, wealthy investors, it is a lot easier to do a re to do a fund right. To, to li to raise money. But we, we, uh, with the non-accredited folks that there's a lot of complaints involved.
Sam Wilson (00:25:34) - Boy, I can only imagine that there is there. I I like the way you're thinking about that. It's almost like an internal recap, uh, with, with the REIT as opposed to maybe doing an, an institutional recap on your projects. You're recapping it with your own investor base, which I think is brilliant. Cause I think on the institutional side, they're, those splits on those recaps are often 90 10. So I mean, it's kind of a, it's an even better deal maybe for you guys but also for your investors cuz they, they already know and like the deals that you're involved in. So it's very, very cool. We are absolutely out of time, which is a disappointment cuz I've enjoyed this conversation thoroughly. I've got about 500 more questions for you, but we don't have time for it either way. Jameson of our listeners wanna get in touch with you and learn more about you. What is the best way to do that?
Jamison Manwaring (00:26:13) - Uh, go to our YouTube channel. If you just type in Neighborhood Ventures and YouTube, we put out a lot of content there. Our website is Easy neighborhood.ventures and, uh, I'd, I'd invite you to follow our content. If you never plan on investing, that's fine. I think you'll learn, learn from what we do. We go do a lot of behind the scenes stuff and I, and we have fun with it. We, uh, uh, also have a podcast, kiss my assets, uh, try to have fun with it. So, uh, follow our stuff. We'd love to have anyone, uh, uh, follow along.
Sam Wilson (00:26:43) - Awesome. Jameson, thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your day. Hey, thanks for having me. It's been fun. Hey, thanks for listening to the How to Scale Commercial Real Estate podcast. If you can, do me a favor and subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google Podcast, whatever platform it is you use to listen. If you can do that for us, that would be a fantastic help to the show. It helps us both attract new listeners as well as rank higher on those directories. So appreciate you listening. Thanks so much and hope to catch you on the next episode.